All posts by ConsumingFire

DISCLAIMER: Just found out about the existence of the Godzilla 1954 - 1999 Super Complete Works Guidebook. 500,000 degrees is indeed official whereas before I figured you were simply pulling that number out of thin air. It still makes zero sense and is inconsistent as all hell, but if that's the number Toho accepts and endorses then that's the number we'll use, logic be damned.

And yet the fact that the human pilots can see SpaceGodzilla at all flies in the face of your argument, as you have yet to refute it. Godzilla was also knocked on his ass from a fragment of his own beam hitting his shoulder after being reflected by SpaceGodzilla's shield.

I understand that white holes are further away, yes. According to the article you linked, they appear in the theory of eternal black holes (a.k.a. wormholes) and white holes can't exist for black holes created by stellar collapse. However, it's Wikipedia, so take info therein with a pound of salt.

I'll ignore the time-travel issue for now as that's a discussion in and of itself.

Yup. Several pages on VsDebating Wiki were simply copypasted from VBW, the black hole one being just one example.

Um... where do you get the idea Mothra is "bare bones 4 - 5 times planet level"? Proof please.

His presence didn't melt the armor, just its diamond coating. It wasn't immediate, either.

To be fair, SpaceGodzilla was already in the process of dying when Godzilla blasted him with the spiral ray. Also, Godzilla didn't absorb SpaceGodzilla's power as SpaceGodzilla's essence simply flew back into space the same way Biollante did.

And yet, he still physically melted at 1200 C. It's there in film for all to see and mentioned several times throughout. You're blowing his power (and beam temperature) way out of proportion. Your math can be correct by itself but still wrong if it's based on false premisses, which it is in this case, because Godzilla's temperature is not that high. Not even remotely, Even if the temperatures you gave were correct (which they're not), the established 1200 C value effectively retcons them.

Fine, we'll go with that.

It's not a logical fallacy, the humans still would need to see SpaceGodzilla in order to engage him which they'd be unable to do were he blasting through space at MFTL speed (or even just lightspeed). Granted, time dilation could possibly factor in if M.O.G.U.E.R.A. were travelling at the same speed however even the slightest discrepancy at those absurd speeds would leave them blind and unable to do anything. He also did not destroy everything in his path as such speed mandates he would, as the asteroid belt was entirely unaffected by his and M.O.G.U.E.R.A.'s battle.

Moreover, no time frame is ever given for SpaceGodzilla's flight to Earth prior to his initial detection by NASA. The nearest black hole has no bearing on this as SpaceGodzilla emerged from a white hole as per the theory. Due to SpaceGodzilla's marked similarities to Biollante, I find her the more likely candidate for being the source of the genetic material which ultimately gave rise to him. What was left of her essence may have entered a black hole in the original timeline and exited out of a white hole in the new timeline created by the time-travel shenanigans of Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah.

No idea, as I don't communicate with them. However, I am 90% certain that page was taken directly from said wiki.

"A burst of energy unseen since time began" is a rather dubious statement that I don't put much stock in as it could easily be hyperbole, and to assume it's referring to the explosion being stronger than a supernova simply because people knew about them back then is quite the leap of logic. The potential Planet level outcome shown is far more likely the limit of his power and its similarities to the China Syndrome were brought up. Godzilla has also never withstood anything even remotely approaching the level of a supernova in the films. Finally, he physically melted at 1200 C, which can't be overlooked or handwaved as it was a major plot point. It's also well below the temperature of any stellar explosion.

Life-wiping could destroy the surface and raze the planet of life of every sort, potentially even snuffing out the Earth's life essence while leaving it *mostly* physically intact, with the asteroid acting more like a fatal gunshot. It's a logical crapshoot, I know, but it's the only alternative I can currently surmise.

Appealing to reality, M.O.G.U.E.R.A.'s human pilots would not be able to see SpaceGodzilla (as that would require the light from his form to reach their eyes and their brains registering the information provided, and also react to it) were he truly FTL, even being the slightest bit faster than M.O.G.U.E.R.A. would cause this issue. M.O.G.U.E.R.A. can only react as fast as his human pilots can operate him as they are prerequisite for him being able to do anything at all, as he is a mech. The average human reaction time is approximately 250 milliseconds, whereas light can travel 186 miles in just 1 millisecond. Moreover, not only would the asteroid belt around them be completely vaporized by either of them racing through it at light-speed, much less FTL, but their brief collision would and should have obliterated them both.

It's the Wiki's logic, not mine. I'd take it up with the mods.

Again, the comics and the games are not canon to the films insofar as they introduce concepts not shown or used in the movies, so this is largely a moot point. Burning Godzilla's energy release is also not even close to approaching anywhere near the levels you describe as "more than all nuclear weapons put together" much more likely means Continent level to Planet level destruction (leaning towards the latter in this case), which is shown in the movie as a possible outcome: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123441/3678770-gz%20feat%20total%20power%20%282%29.png

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123441/3678771-gz%20feat%20total%20power%20%283%29.png

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/123441/3678772-gz%20feat%20total%20power%20%284%29.png

Yes they are in this day and age of YouTube's trigger-happy copyright policy.

It still won't load for whatever reason.

On this point, we agree.

When and where was range mentioned?

"Destroy the planet" could easily still imply life-wiping (destruction of the natural and human worlds) rather than outright total annihilation of the planet itself.

In all honesty, if SpaceGodzilla really were travelling that quickly, then the humans piloting M.O.G.U.E.R.A. would be utterly incapable of perceiving him, much less actually engaging him in battle. Also, even if he was that fast, that sort of speed has only ever been displayed in a vacuum.

Yes, it's a fallacy, but it's one the wiki is apparently okay with and endorses for whatever reason. That page makes black hole survivability into more of a resistance feat rather than a physical durability one.

In-universe, it's still just a theory and might not even be true. When caught between two seemingly mutually exclusive statements from different media, the films supersede the games in canonicity. Moreover, theories are not synonymous with facts and so the idea of its "being proven" in-universe should not be assumed without verifiable evidence. Theories can and have been incorrect and proven false in the past.

The first Comicvine image won't load, even with a page refresh.

"Under the Earth's crust" are indeed key words, and until I can locate a clip of the actual battle scene itself, I'll go with it.

I'll concede to 54's atomic breath calc as I just watched the scene depicted. The energy and heat output of Shin's own breath (in J) were calced as well https://www.reddit.com/r/theydidthemath/comments/4xjjut/request_how_hot_would_shin_godzillas_fire_have_to/, but as it was so localized in its scope (not the initial widespread fire stream but rather the condensed beam of energy it ultimately ended up as) it wouldn't have required as much energy in order to slice clean through skyscrapers.

Vaporization should not be assumed. Battra would not be above sacrificing a few to save the greater whole of the planet. Remember he tried to destroy humanity. If he could blow up the big space rock while also possibly getting rid of other potential threats to Earth at the same time, he'd probably do just that. However, we'll never know for sure as that plot point wasn't allowed to take place courtesy of Godzilla.

Okay, Earth is alive. I remember that part now.

Kaiju moving faster than light? Is there any proof of this in the slightest that doesn't involve SpaceGodzilla and abuse of scaling?

About the black hole... SpaceGodzilla isn't star level because of it as it's not a durability feat. To quote the Black Hole Feats in Fiction page: https://vsdebating.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Hole_feats_in_fiction

"Now out of the reasons stated above a regular 3-dimensional character would get destroyed when approaching the singularity (the center of the black hole). The tidal forces would become infinite and he or she would be destroyed no matter how high his or her durability is. Since saying that a characters durability is infinite is an outlier in any case surviving a singularity can not be taken as a durability feat. It can only be understood as a feat for resistance against black holes."

Moreover, the black hole itself isn't even confirmed in-universe. It's just a theory that the scientists tossed around for a bit.

As for the video game guide, if it's official, then I'll go with it insofar as what it attempts to lay out not contradicting the movies.

I was paying attention. Godzilla and Battra's battle on the seafloor didn't break a tectonic plate. Their clash caused an undersea volcano located between the Eurasian and Philippine plates to erupt and consume both of them as the ground beneath them collapsed.

Also, where do you get the idea that this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suURUXGLJRQ is even remotely comparable to this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpGK-H8tiaM

I know the asteroid was real in-universe and that Mothra stopped it. What I asked for was verification that she "stopped it physically", which I took to mean that you were inferring she somehow face-tanked it. The links you provided cleared that misunderstanding up.

As an aside, the type of destruction is never specified. "Destroy the Earth" could easily just refer to a life-wiper like the Chicxulub impactor as the asteroid is termed a "meteor" specifically. For an asteroid to literally explode the Earth a la Alderaan, then it would need to be exceedingly colossal, easily 3x the size of the moon, and traveling at massively hypersonic speeds. At that point, it could be classified as a small planet rather than an asteroid.

SpaceGodzilla was exposed to the energies of exploding stars, yes. This is a well-known fact. It is not, however, synonymous with tanking supernovae explosions. The energy in question is likely a reference to stellar radiation in general, which can extend for hundreds of millions of miles from the star that generates it.

The comics are not canon to the films, so that point is moot. They are still officially licensed media, are based on and expand upon the films, but they exist within their own separate continuities and have no bearing on the films themselves. This is absolutely the case unless otherwise officially stated by Toho.

I'll concede to Toho Kingdom's use of official sources, however the video games are in the same situation as the comics. They're not canon to the movies.

Shin Godzilla is the lowest? I sincerely doubt that. He displayed more destructive power than most other live-action Godzillas, albeit at the expense of durability and stamina. Godzilla's lowest showing is easily the original 1954 Gojira, who only managed to melt/explode tanks and buildings with his atomic ray. Showa Godzilla has destroyed buildings and city blocks, as has Heisei Godzilla (& Burning) as well as the various Millennium Godzillas. It is not baseless, as it is what they're shown to do in the films on numerous occasions. Godzilla's durability, however, has been shown to easily be in the large town to city level. His durability is typically much more impressive than his own offensive capabilities, effectively making him a reverse glass cannon.

Proof that she physically stopped it? Proof that the manga are considered official canon to the films by Toho themselves?

Toho Kingdom is a fan-run website, not an official source, and doesn't actually speak for Toho. The video games likewise do not hold any sort of sway over the movies.

Godzilla isn't generally that powerful unless we're using composites. Destroying a planet, star, or even "just" a continent is far, far beyond his typically displayed strength level in the live-action films, which ranges from Large Building to Large Town level on average.

No.

Neither Mothra nor Battra are planet busters for the same reasons that disarming or destroying a nuclear bomb doesn't make one a city buster.

The manga isn't canon to the films, and so any feats therein are effectively moot.

And lastly, that description on the English dvd release is entirely meaningless hyperbole for marketing purposes.

Heisei Godzilla is just fine where he is.

@Hellbeast1

1.) That may or may not be the case, though I'm leaning toward that not being the case since if it was how would Kratos have traveled to Midgard from Greece? I'm guessing that Tyr's Unity Stone was a method of fast travel.

^plus the devs confirmed that all mythologies exist in GoW-verse, just that they're separated by geography.

2.) Maybe, seeing as he is Zeus' grandson. However it might have just been to set the mood of the story at that point.

Okay, just throwing this out here.

I noticed a recent tier revision apparently on the basis of the World Serpent being the size of Midgard. That's all well and good, except that in-universe Midgard is a region of Earth, hence why Baldur in Kratos' first encounter with him says "You should never have come to Midgard". Also, the other realms have not been confirmed to be the size of the entire planet and are more likely simply the size of Midgard itself seeing as they are said to occupy the same space but in different dimensions.

AND it's multiplatform, although I'll still probably get it for PS4.

I'm loving the grappling hook arm augment. No more climbing ladders at a snail's pace.

Okay I just found a clip online and from what I can tell the explosion isn't actually a kilometer wide. It's maybe 5 to 7 Godzilla body lengths wide at its widest, so around 400 meters which would be Small Town level, not Town level.

@Bambu Yeah it's a base ability.

Also @Paulo I just now realized what you meant by the 8-A questioning. I'll edit his profile since it was actually a different explosion I had in mind at the time, and mixed it up with one of his town level AP showings (it's been over a decade since I last saw the film and I don't own it anymore).

EDIT: It's on his profile now, as I just now managed to find a clip of it.

@Paulo That's because I probably got two different explosions from the movie mixed up. One is where Godzilla took a hit from King Ghidorah's energy sphere which destroyed an entire docks region, the other was after Godzilla absorbed Ghidorah's lightning to amp his atomic ray which he used to blow up Ghidorah in a kilometer-wide explosion. .

@Bambu His precog is only a few seconds ahead.

For the sake of argument, let's just say that hellfire can harm the Sectopod since it's not "normal" fire. Even if it did, I'd imagine Sectopod would still be hugely resistant to it, though.